Analyst Claims Palm Pre Return Rates Are High. We're Not so Sure

THANK YOU for this post... though I'm not sure you're going to get very "scientific" results from THIS poll, either!

I havent even had "exchange" in my mind at all throughout my experience with my Pre. :)

No doubt iPhone fanboys will raid your new poll, but thanks for posting this article nonetheless. I absolutely love my Palm Pre and have had no problems with it whatsoever. The vast majority of my complaints can (and likely will) be addressed via software updates.

Anyone considering the Palm Pre should really take all the noise you hear with a grain of salt... it's a fantastic device with a very bright future.

onto my 3rd Pre but still holding up hope

all the analysts are guessing at this point. because just like apple palm is being very tight lipped on any numbers it doesn't want released yet.

Not really sure what the fuss is about - you run a site dedicated to the pre - so obviously a majority of your users got their phones in the first batch or two... so some quality issues may exist...

But is palm sold over 300k phones, then what is 620 people taking a survey? not very much...

Its bullocks - same things were reported when the iPhone was released, and the Storm. People see competition and get scared.

Im sure returns are happening, but not at 40%. You would hear something more substantial than this. You would actually see stores like BEST BUY and RADIO SHACK not re-order stock because of quality control issues.

I've had my Pre since June 6th... Purchased 2 and have had the same handset since then. I've had a couple of minor problems with the phone, but none that I could not fix or figure out. The major problem I've had so far was the phone would shut off when I would slide the phone closed. This was a known issue and Sprint sent me a new battery the next day and I have not had that problem since the new battery. The Pre is an awesome device for being the 1st Gen of webOS. We all new that there would be bugs in the Pre when it first launched like all other handsets do.

I am very satisfied with what webOS has done and what Palm will continue to do! My fiancee and I have really enjoyed getting familiar with the Pre. I have referred and convinced several of my friends to give the Pre a chance and they have absolutley loved the Pre instead of going elsewhere. Thank you Palm!! Happy customer here!!

I've had to return mine after a few weeks due to random shut offs but have had no probs with the new one. I am still extremely optimistic about this OS despite the minor hardware issue i experienced. I see a lot of potential for the OS and future phones they put it on.

I've had my Pre since June 6th... Purchased 2 and have had the same handset since then. I've had a couple of minor problems with the phone, but none that I could not fix or figure out. The major problem I've had so far was the phone would shut off when I would slide the phone closed. This was a known issue and Sprint sent me a new battery the next day and I have not had that problem since the new battery. The Pre is an awesome device for being the 1st Gen of webOS. We all new that there would be bugs in the Pre when it first launched like all other handsets do.

I am very satisfied with what webOS has done and what Palm will continue to do! My fiancee and I have really enjoyed getting familiar with the Pre. I have referred and convinced several of my friends to give the Pre a chance and they have absolutley loved the Pre instead of going elsewhere. Thank you Palm!! Happy customer here!!

I've had my Pre since June 6th... Purchased 2 and have had the same handset since then. I've had a couple of minor problems with the phone, but none that I could not fix or figure out. The major problem I've had so far was the phone would shut off when I would slide the phone closed. This was a known issue and Sprint sent me a new battery the next day and I have not had that problem since the new battery. The Pre is an awesome device for being the 1st Gen of webOS. We all new that there would be bugs in the Pre when it first launched like all other handsets do.

I am very satisfied with what webOS has done and what Palm will continue to do! My fiancee and I have really enjoyed getting familiar with the Pre. I have referred and convinced several of my friends to give the Pre a chance and they have absolutley loved the Pre instead of going elsewhere. Thank you Palm!! Happy customer here!!

I work at a Sprint store. Have seen only about 3 returned out of about a hundred sold since June 6th. Those returned 1: new activation and no coverage for person, 2 not staying charged/ charging battery, last one don't remember. But two were just exchanges. In my experience, the Pre is much better in customer understanding than popular Window Mobile HTC Diamond and Pro we sold. Had customers returned just because the customer did not/ would not close the running programs in the background which killed the battery life and had the phone freezing up. So for the Pre, so far so good. Plus I was advocate for the phone and I have attempted/ did everything with mine except rooted it. No issues/ problems so far.

The article originated from barrons blogs originally.

see http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre/193789-analyst-palm-pre-return-rat...

It's pretty unprofessional to quote a survey on a forum or the web. They are in no way controlled for sampling all sides, and they are easy for upset people to falsify. That analyst is more interested in creating a story than in reporting on one. Thanks for doing some professional analysis, PreCentral.

I purchased my Pre as soon as my contract expired on 7/1. I've had no issues here at all. The only real issue I've had is Sprint Navigation not responding and a reboot fixes it. I'm assuming they know about this issue and a software update can fix it.

I said I had no issues and contradicted myself - the issue has happened twice in almost a month now and is not significant enough for me to return it.

I got my Pre on launch day, have not had any issues. The only "problem" I had was after the last update-not all my sounds were working after it rebooted itself(after update). Played around with it until I rebooted it again-everything back to normal. Going to remember to reboot it after the OS updates it on next firmware.

I *love* my Pre and I've come from a 600/650/700p/755p/Centro. Clearly-I'm a fan of Palm.

No doubt like someone hinted at-I bet a lot of "returns" on the poll are from Apple fanboys trying to skew the results to dissuade people from getting it.

I seriously doubt its near 40%. I can say when I was getting mine at a sprint corp store here in SW Michigan (which is suppose to one of the busiest in the state) the rep did say the exchange rate on the Pre at their location was the highest he has seen on a phone in the 6 years he's been there. But he didn't say any numbers so even so it may and probably is in the single digit percent range. I would say stop being anal over little thing on the phone and just enjoy it. I know I am. The pre is the best phone i've owned in the 11 plus years I've be with sprint. Love sprint and love the Pre

What I would like to see (and I notice the OP didn't include it in the thread) is WHO voted in the poll. The major problem is that it's completely unscientific and people who don't even own the device can vote. There are a number of trolls in the forum that don't even own a Pre and I guarantee you that every one of them voted. I know there's an option to show who voted, I'd like to see that.

And I got my Pre on 8 Jun and it is problem-free and solid as a rock.

I purchased 2 Pres, 1 on launch day for my sister and 1 two weeks later for myself. Hers is flawless with absolutely no problems. Mine on the other hand is a different story. I had to return my 1st one cause the wifi radio didn't work. Then the second one had a space you could fit a quarter in.between the 2 pieces. My third one had severe "oreo" effect and the power button didn't click when it was pressed. When I returned that one I litteraly handled everyone they had in stock and picked the one that twisted the least.(They had 4 handsets there.) Unfortunately the one I ended up with has more wiggle than my sisters or the first one I had. But by the looks of things I'm not gonna end up with anything better if I keep returning it. I love the SW and in theory I love the hardware too, if it was built better.

I got my Pre on the evening of launch day, and I've been very pleased with it so far. I have one stuck pixel, but it's at the edge of the "card" so it's invisible 95% of the time. I also noticed the slight wobble in the slider, but come on, it's a comeback phone for a near-broke company and they got it right in every other area. I thought about complaining and trying to get a replacement, but then I realized it's not a big deal to me, while I would be hurting the company and their chances of success if I exchanged it. Then what phone would I use if Palm fails? An iPhone? No thanks. I don't need an ugly, rectangular, social movement-spawned game phone that everyone and their mother already has.

I seriously contemplated returning it. The PIM applications are really a detriment to business professionals switching from PalmOS, Blackberry and probably Windows Mobile. Hopefully Palm puts the Zen back into the PIM applications with OS updates.

I haven't returned mine, and voted that way, but three others I know, haven't returned theirs, but they'll never vote, since they rely on me to look into any issues.

Issues a sell recommendation based on information from the counter guys at BB and RS backed up by an informal and unscientific forum survey? His bosses let him get away with that? Research budgets must be pretty tight at Jesup & Lamont these days. Scratch that investment house from the list.

I remember reading on these forums someone whose Pre became an oreo (twisting) after he dropped it.

I wonder how many returns are because of manufacturing defects vs accidental abuse.

After reading these forums, I am hypersensitive to problems with the Pre. I have not had a problem with mine (I bought mine on day 1). I did drop it face down on the pavement once and have a little gash in the side (hardly noticeable). I use no screen protector and my screen didn't even get scratched.

Financial experts have lost a lot of credibility when they make investment predictions based on forum post. Don't they realize people go to forums to help solve problems. If someone is perfectly happy with a product the average person doesn't go to forums to say how happy they are.

I am a manager at a Best Buy and we honestly get more iphone returns than Pre's out of all the pre's we sold so far i can only remember 5 or so getting exchanged for new ones.

The PRE as a platform has huge potential. However, the build quality of the current PRE seems like a Fisher Price product. Not to mention the new dev SDK is crippled and beta at best.

Too bad the board, and new (or is he old?) CEO aren't in it for the long haul. Those clowns bet the farm that someone like Dell was going to come along and offer up large amounts of $$$ to buy them out.

Well, so far that hasn't happened. If PALM isn't bought out, or doesn't get an infusion of outside money the PRE will be done. Game over.

Interesting game of Texas Hold Em those guys in Sunnyvale are playing. Let's see if they make it to the next table with that first draw.

I have returned mine twice once for over heating battery with a yellowish circle at the bottom of the screen and my phone always thought it had headphones plugged into it second time was the same headphone problem they said it was unrepairable and my battery would get way to hot but didn't get the discoloration. The 3rd time it happens I'm getting a new phone.

I've had my Palm Pre since mid-June and it's still going strong. What is happening is that we've entered the "dump" part of the "pump and dump" cycle for Palm stock.

When the iphone came out I remember TONS of issues that forced people to return it, mainly due to the crappy battery you couldn't replace yourself but rather had to send to iphone and pay for them to give you some kind of replacement as they kept your old phone for a week.

I love my pre and after using webOS, it would be hard to do so much less on other phones.

send to apple i mean, not send to iphone

I am on my second pre... The first one had a problem with the camera, it had a line running down the right side of it. But I took it to a sprint store and they replaced with no questions asked. I love my pre and the OS has a ton of potencial... The hardwear could be better, but it is Palm's first try with a uber phone... So give them a break! So overall I am a happy pre/sprint customer!

I am an apple fanboy but I have been wanting pre. Those fanboy's you guys are referring to are extremist. To try and bash a poll is childish. Me myself I will wait a while and see what the next gen device has in store. I will also wait and see how the app catolog flourishes and also how the android platform develops. I know this for sure I will now be on the lookout for upcoming WebOS devices, Android, and iPhone OS products.

Got my Pre about three weeks ago. Love it. No issues and no thoughts of returning or exchanging it.

I got my Pre on day one (June 6) and have not experienced any build problems with the phone. Recently I switched out the standard back for the one used with the charging stone. Again, no problems.

Looks like your poll is showing massive exchanges as well.

If you compare PEOPLE, not PREs, you already are at 30+% "I've exchanged".

But if you "do the math" and instead compare PREs, and not PEOPLE, you find the "It's exchanged" has skyrocketed to at LEAST 37% (and that low-ball number assumes the "more than once" is literally only "2"). 37%, given the error in the sampling, is "close enuf" to 40% to confirm that "analyst's" guesstimate.

This shouldn't be surprising, of course, because the ORIGINAL poll used the same population so the results should be, within some "small error", the same.

Sprint stores started to refuse to exchange Pres for wobbly sliders. You have to first go and get a repair location to authorize the wobbly is a detriment to the phone, and THEN you can go back and get a new one. I had to raise hell to get mine exchanged (2 weeks after I bought it).

The one exchange it with works much better, but I dead have about 4-5 pixel issues, but when using it is not visible so I kept it.

Shouldn't the poll distinguish between returns and exchanges? An exchange means the person still wants a Pre or webOS device but had an issue (probably hardware) that needed to be addressed. Palm/Sprint takes a hit on margin but units sold doesn't change. Neither does the popularity of the platform; the consumer is still a fan.

A return indicates someone encountered hardware or platform issues severe enough to warrant a change to another device (and OS). Palm/Sprint lose money and net sales. webOS as a platform takes a reputation hit.

BTW, I answered "Nope."

Absolutely no hardware issues with my Pre. There's some very minor software issues but I imagine they will be fixed soon. Expecting a 1.0 product to not have software issues is just a bit naive.

I honestly think most of the people complaining are overly picky. Yeah, my slider wobbles a tiny little bit. Big deal? I'd rather it wobble a little then be overly tight and wear out later.

I bought three on day one with no real issues. One had a couple of unwanted shutdowns when closing that a battery replacement has fixed. Perfect no, satisfied yes sir.

I purchased 2 Pre phone on the 6/10. Loving it.. Also my fiance loves hers. Had to return hers because of a volume control issue through the earpiece. But other than that. NO problems at all. Loving being able to add new apps here on Homebrew. I have great confidence that Palm will update the Pre to open up all the capabilities of this awesome OS and really show Apple and Blackberry how to make a good phone first time out. SDK loading of the phone is so simple and easy. Palm knocked it out the park with that function. And it seems that writing apps for the OS is not as hard as folk thought it would be. Another winning combination for Palm.

I give the Pre a awesome rating for what it does now. And what it will be in the near future.

Well I am on my 4th!!! But none of them are returns. Bought 3 on release day for my family and got the 4th one at the end of June for my mom. No issues at all outside of the normal battery life stuff due to excited usage during the first few weeks.

Now, with normal use battery life is not so bad (it could always be better though).

I love my pre. I'm just patiently waiting for more apps.

I haven't had any problems at all with my Pre, other than the battery not holding a charge very well at first. (At this point, the battery lasts all day without a problem, even with heavy Internet use.)

The problem (as others have noted) is that if you troll the forums for user reactions, the reactions you're going to get are skewed towards those who are going to have problems. Someone who doesn't have problems is simply going to remain silent under such conditions.

It would be like going into the Homebrew forum to see what the percentage of hacked Pres was.

I will be exchanging my Pre for another. I cannot stop email notifications or anything about the getting my emails,. The phone does whatever it wants. Sprint phone service said to return it, then the store said it would not do it, as there are a lot of people with that problem. So I had to go on vacation, end of 30 days. Now, I am getting ready to deal with Pre for the exchange. I already talked to them about the problem. They better send me a phone to use while mine is gone.

I will be exchanging my Pre for another. I cannot stop email notifications or anything about the getting my emails,. The phone does whatever it wants. Sprint phone service said to return it, then the store said it would not do it, as there are a lot of people with that problem. So I had to go on vacation, end of 30 days. Now, I am getting ready to deal with Pre for the exchange. I already talked to them about the problem. They better send me a phone to use while mine is gone.

I bought my Pre on launch day & have not had any issues. I had an issue with Classic, but I don't think they would take it back for that. I've installed many other apps (including homebrews) & have not had any issues with them. I love my Pre! I also have 4 people who also have pre's that do not read forums, so add them to the list of no returns or exchanges. Oh they will probably complain that they have not been able to top my score in speedbrain. Soon that might make them want to exchange. Lol

I am still using my third Pre. I am not a hater, but let us be realistic about this. I have never had to return a cell phone before. In MY experience, the Pre does have a higher than normal exchange rate.

Remember, the option "Yes, more than once" does not just represent one bad Pre times the number of votes. It represents MULTIPLE bad Pre times the number of votes.

Hopefully, Palm has worked out the manufacturing issues and is concentrating on the software.

I've had mine since launch day, no hardware/software issues at all.

The analysis has, as previously pointed out, quite a few problems: the forums here are not the best place to get real statistical data as it represents a small and more enthusiastic portion of the poulation (and an anonymous internet poll of the users/viewers of the site will be even worse for accuracy), and-- more importantly-- it fails to distinguish between a "return" and an "exchange" which is a significant difference. A return means that they have lost a customer while an exchange means that they have lost a device in inventory.

That being said I am one that can testify-- perhaps disproportionately-- to there being something to be said for recurring problrems in the Pre's manufacturing process as I have had to *exchange* my Pre three times due to hardware issues, many of them major (and it has been my experience that a seemingly minor screen issue is but a precursor to the development of far more serious hardware issues with these devices). I am not talking about "wiggle" here, or even gaps, I am talking about real, hard failures in the hardware (abnormally high heat and battery drain-- we are talking five percent after a one minute phone conversation with strong signal; complete failure of the data radio; phone not unlocking to answer calls; screen crashing to black and not restoring for more than one second and only then by holding the power button down for longer than it should to prompt the option to reboot).

There are issues that Palm needs to address in the build quality of the Pre. The question is how many customers is it actually costing them (and how much is it skewing the "units shipped" total). After all, I have *exchanged* all of mine...

I've had my Pre and Sprint a couple weeks now after switching over from Verizon. I can honestly say that it is the best user experience I've had with a smartphone. Is the phone perfect, no? But there is no perfect phone.

Aside from the battery life issues that we've all experienced and the limited apps currently available, Palm really has made an excellent first gen device and OS.

We have two Pres and neither my wife nor I have had any build issues at all, I have rooted mine and used the SDK Homebrew load on both and have seen no issues except having some kickbutt apps. As ith all sliders, the face does loosen a bit over time, but it is way better than any other slider I've ever owned and it really doesn't move much at all, it also didn't bother me one bit. Truth be told, I've been an avid Treo user for years and this phone makes me so happy that I've been a Palm fan...from the IIIe to present I've always had one. Thanks Palm for the awesome phone and thanks a lot to PreCentral for the great forums! I feel like a fan boy, but at 39 years old, I am VERY happy to have this phone.

as of posting this 519 people have had to return their pre AT LEAST ONCE. 1240 have not. so youre right its not 1 out of 3 are returned. its actually closer to HALF 42%. sounds like a great phone.

I have voted over 10 times already by clearing the cookies in the same browser, using multiple browsers, and by using different machines on the same network.

and i bet you have no idea what a vagina feels like.

Bought mine on July 6th and haven't had any problems. The build quality seems fine. I really like the form factor and feel of the device. I like to carry my phone in my front pants pocket and the Pre is perfect for that use.

In addition, the quality of the included accessories (travel charger, USB cable, headset and micro-fiber case) are well above average for included peripherals. The case seems particularly well thought out; I assumed I would replace it in favor of a screen protector, but, so far, I kind of like the pouch and it helps keep the unit nice and shiny.

I've exchanged my Pre a total of 6 (yes, that's a "SIX"), not counting two swaps in the stores. Most of the issues have been screen blemishes & "Oreo Twist". One had a memory leak, & another had servere audio issues. I think I have a good one now. I hope it's the last, my 30 days are up on the 25th of July!

I am on my second PRE. My first one was twisting and had a crack near the charging port. Exchanged it with no problem from Sprint. My current one feels more sturdy and slides much easier. I love this phone!!!

Did you use the word, "Golly" in your article?! Can we start a new poll on how many of us lose dates with women by slipping "golly" into our rap?

Analyst postings such as this are used to drive stock prices in a particular direction.

Bought 2 the Tuesday after launch. No problems with mine, however my wife's has been shipped back to Palm. She developed the ever popular cracks eminating from the bottom button. Looked online, saw pics that looked exactly like hers, called Palm. They are replacing at no charge.

Really not sure why mine hasn't cracked. The phones were different though. Mine is more loose, and has some minor separation from front to back. Hers was tight. Admittedly I was jealous of hers not having a wobble, but now I'm not. :)

I have had a Pre since day one and it is by far the best phone I have ever owned. It makes every other phone -- including the iPhone -- look really, really old!

Of course the webOS software is out of this world fantastic -- multi-tasking and the notifications are awesome. But the hardware is incredible too and is being understated -- the feel, pocketability, and beauty of design are exceptional. It is really just the perfect size. And the size of the screen seems huge for how small it is when it used for video and web -- it is a gorgeous, brilliant display.

I cannot fathom why anyone wouldn't want a Pre! Go Palm!

The reason build quality issues are significant is the Pre is much more complicated than the iPhone. The iPhone has no moving parts at all. The Pre has to way exceed the build quality of the iPhone just to be exactly as durable because the Pre has a slider and keyboard and battery cover and swappable backs and a second OLED display and a second gesture area and lots of little buttons. All that stuff is very breakable. On the iPhone it is just not there.

Another reason build quality issues are significant is that the Pre is al all-new design. The iPhone was essentially just a new iPod, with the same solid back, sealed battery, dock connector. They just replaced the screen and click wheel with a bigger screen with touch. Even the bottom 3/4 of the software stack was bit-for-bit from the Mac, not an all-new OS. With the Pre you have a new form factor and new software stack, it is a much more from-scratch machine, with many more question marks. Palm is at a much earlier stage with Pre/WebOS than Apple was with iPhone when it launched. So Palm is much more than 2 years behind Apple. There is still a lot for Palm to prove.

> I cannot fathom why anyone wouldn't want a Pre! Go Palm!

Because for the same price you can get an iPhone 3GS with 32GB of storage and many, many other features the Pre lacks. That is the main reason. The Pre is priced the same as the hottest and most successful smart phone on the market, which is at least 2 years more advanced in every way than Pre. That's not a recipe for lots of sales.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ah56B.cBAKPc

Oh, will someone please come along and take the bait. C'mon Nokia.. it's your way back to the future. Just ask all the folks who took this poll.

Swapped before even leaving the store the first time, I said Yes but not sure if it really counts....

I beleive it when they say return rates are high. I've been wanting to beleive that Palm has changed and that the Pre is finally the device that's going to prove it. So far it has not been that way. And for that I went and attempted to get a new phone, but the sprint people there said my phone had water damage and they weren't going to replace it. It was all bullshit since they didn't even open the phone to check this. But I thought to myself, what is it going to change if I exchange for a new phone? It's going to be the same thing when I get it so I decided to just keep it. I was happy with the device when I got it, but after it went through the everyday use. I find this device to be an annoying piece of hardware. Don't get me wrong, it's much better than the previous Palm devices I've had, but still a long way to go before it's as useful as other phones. Build quality wise, it's crappy. The battery is loose and the sliding is so bad on my phone now I can't even push it to open with one hand. The bottom "lip" of the phone is all worn out now like someone put a sandpaper to it. The mirror back has a streak to it from opening and closing. Battery life is short and sometime even shorter. It's quite unpredictable how long it lasts before I have to charge it. Functionality wise, it's slow to respond to input. I't already lagging to the point of not being able to answer calls when a call comes in. I have to repeatedly tap or drag to answer calls. Missed calls as a result of lagging is about 30% or more I would say. The palm touts it's touchscreen and ability to zoom in and out and how it can rotate screen, but almost no apps make use of this and as a result, that capability is useless. Take PDF for example, how the hell do you not have lanscape reading enabled from the beginning is just beyond understanding. I won't go into apps...but hearing people return this thing at a high rate does not surprise me.

I returned my Pre because there seemed to be the yellow spot on the bottom every once in a while. I'm not sure it was dead pixels or a heat issue but as time reached the 30 day mark, I decided to return the phone and get a new one just in case.

Now that said, I have been through 5 HTC Touch Phones in little over a year. I keep the thing around cause there is still some features that the Pre doesn't have like video, docs, etc... If you figure that I upgrade a phone about every 18 to 24 months, I tend to average 2 to 3 returns Pre phone and since moving on to Smart Phones the returns have gone up. I'm not sure if I'm hard on phones or if this is the norm.

The thing is that I don't buy a phone for the quality of the phone itself but the feel of the phone and what it can do. I expect them to fall apart at some point much in the same way I expect that my car will. Moving parts and electronics wear out. Everything has an expiration date. If the trade is light weight, compact with a keyboard for the phone to last 10 years. I'll pick light weight, compact with a keyboard cause I'm not going to use the phone for 10 years.

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I just want to point out that while there is ZERO conclusive evidence that a "large" percentage of Pre owners have encountered issues with their phones, the nature and consistency of the issues that have been experienced is quite telling. If large numbers of people report problems via unreliable sources like the Internet, but the proportional diversity of those problems were roughly equivalent, then it would be fair to say the phone is most likely not to blame.

If on the other hand a moderate number of individuals (i.e. in the forums themselves, and not necessarily a poll which is easily manipulated) can be seen reporting certain, very similar types problems with disproportionate consistency (touch screen cracks from center button, screen twisting) compared to other types of problems, that presents strong albeit circumstantial evidence that there are certain, very specific problems with the phone itself.

To me, the evidence strongly suggests poor build quality in certain areas of the phone -- i.e. the sliding track is unreliable, or the capacitive touch surface is too close to the center button.